Working with a model

[Forgiss]

so touch and assistants are about rape and harrassment stuff?...

...it's all personal, again. i just mentioned how different we are. what one considers rule, it thing other considers "no-no" and vice versa. ;]

It's just my own "best practice" rules for my business based on local Labour Law and Terms of Employment (part time or full time)

[dolgachov]

i think i maybe forgot you employ models. it changes things, sure. for those who hires models all posible "no-no" things should work. so yes, i think your practice is more useful for most of those who read us here then mine.

so please anybody reading us, keep in mind the things i say about the way i work can be NEVER applied to any possible sort of work when you hire models or models hire you. if any "employment (part time or full time)" is involved, please read the rules DNF-Style, Forgiss ans realdealphoto wrote here and take them as a law.

[Talya]

I guess, you may let your assistant go to a bathroom, but for the rest of time assistant must be in the studio.
She does not need to scream. She will leave your studio drank (or even get drank after as you let to know everybody that alcohol is not forbidden in your studio), obtain some record  (police record for minor crime, for example). Then when one of her pictures appear in glamor magazine, she will say that  your force her to take nude (or close) photo, then sign a release. Even if nothing of this will stay in court (but it may), this is not the kind of publicity you want. I do not see how money paid/received make any difference in this situation.

[realdealphoto]

For me the No Touch without permission is first and foremost simply about respect.

Lev I would never presume that you would be agreeable to my touching you in the course of a normal conversation or even in the course of a photoshoot. I have a respect for ones personal space and will not as a general rule of conduct violate or enter that personal space in any way without prior permission. Where a model is concerned I ask that permission each and every time I need to touch her. If I have worked with her many times I may only ask the firsttime duruing the session but as it has become habitual for me to ask it is most likely I would still ask "May I?" each and everytime I needed to touch her. Again it is simply about respect and because I show the model that respect I have never had one refuse to allow me to make any adjustments I felt were needed to obtain the shot I wanted.

All the legal issues are of course very much true, especially here in the US where society is so litigious. Here I don't need to be guilty of doing anything wrong to find myself in a situation where I have to defend myself against accusations. So the more bases I keep covered to protect myself the better.

A model may full well understand the way I work and my expectations, rules etc. when she comes into the studio but nothing is to say that she can not become upset during or after the shoot and if she does there is nothing to prevent her from making claims, be they true or false does not matter, they then have to be defended. So if I am never alone with a model and do not touch her without verbal permission and have witnesses to the same then I am better able to defend myself should the need arise. So far it never has but I must as a business person always be ready for the day that some model goes Bat Shit crazy on me.

[dolgachov]

Talya, how big is your experience with real models studio work?

did you ever sign a real relase with model? i mean WITH WITNESS?

1. how the fantasy you just gave us can apply to models who sign releases WITH WITNESS after shoothing sessions?
2. should i bring assistant with me EVERYWHERE now? to be sure i never ever stay tete-a-tete with anyone? becouse if i'll stay, person will get drunk, makes a minor crime and says in court i forced her to get drunk, naked and criminal? ;]

[dolgachov]

For me the No Touch without permission is first and foremost simply about respect.

Lev I would never presume that you would be agreeable to my touching you in the course of a normal conversation or even in the course of a photoshoot.

sure i would. believe me i would. i guess where i live it's a major difference. it's absoluthely ok here to be touched by professional working with you. doctor, hairdresser, fitness instructor, make-up artist, photographer, trainer, lector, teacher.

indeed, the things you say sound so strange for me. like "you should never look at woman in vail". thanks for warning me. once i'll find myself shooting anybody in States, i'll be awared. still sounds so very strange for me. i never work with anybody i don't have a major trust relationships with, so touch is really nothing. first thing i do when i meet new model is a handshake or hug. when model actually appears in my studio it's eather hug or friendly kiss. not the way lovers kiss, the way you kiss your daughter. we are together in studio to make an art. touch is a natural part of communication.

still i see i'm the only weirdo with such an attitude here, so again my advice to anybody - please don't try it my way. and please don't ever try it when any employment involved.

[Talya]

Talya, how big is your experience with real models studio work?

How does that relevant? You assume for some reason that photography is something unique with no relations to the rest of the world.  I honestly believe you know other way to discuss any subject than "shut up you do not have an experience". 
I was curious  about sexual harassment crime at some point and that made me follow some cases.
Yes, I did sign a real model release with witness, as a photographer, as a model, as a witness and as a parent. More than once for each. Witness signature is the reason why I said I doubt that it will stay in court. No, you do not have to have a witness every minutes of your life but your relations with model is a business (does not matter if nobody get paid immediately). I would say anybody should better have a witness of any business done around nudity just to be safe.

[dolgachov]

1. this is relevant. one giving advices SHOULD have a good experience. one without experience can assume, but never give advices.

and Talya, where from NUDITY appeared in this discussion? we didn't discuss nudity here. nudity is something YOU just bringed in here. once we will discuss nudity i will share my experience abouth shooting nudes. we didn't discuss any nudity here.

[realdealphoto]

Ah but see Lev, a handshake or a hug are all actions that the other person acknowledges and agrees to before the contact is made. You extend your hand, I accept it and we shake hands. You open your arms, I open mine and accept the hug. So you see in those situations the permission is there, even if not verbal.

With Barbers, Doctors etc. I know going in that they need to touch me and again my agreement to the contact is implied by my very presence. The touch is absolutely necessary in order for them to do their jobs. As a photographer though the same is not true. I can make a photograph without you having any reasonable expectation that I will need to touch you. That is not to say that you won't need to touch me but unless I know it going in I would not anticipate that it would be required.

With a model for me again it is more about respecting the personal space then anything else. While I do make it known to the model in advance that I may need to touch her to communicate a pose or adjust her hair or wardrobe, I still feel that for me it is appropriate to simply ask permission before touching her. For me it is a show of respect.

Like you a lot of the girls I work with while of legal age are still quite young and I don't want them to leave my studio misunderstanding anything that occurred while they were there. Unlike you I often work with models who are absolute strangers to me. Oftentimes I have only seen a few photos of her and exchanged a few emails to arrange the shoot. In most cases I do not actually meet the model until she walks through the doors of the studio so the trust factor is not already inherently in place. I have to build it from the moment I meet my model.

Don't get me wrong, I m not saying that the way you work with your models is wrong, as you have already said, you already know your model by the time she gets to the studio. For most of us though that is not the case. I as a general rule only book my shoot calendar 30 days in advance because I don't like to fill it up with TFP shoots and then have to cancel them because a paid shoot came along. Even at 30 days in advance I sometimes will have to cancel in favor of a paid assignment so I keep the scheduling as short as possible.

[Talya]

sure i would. believe me i would. i guess where i live it's a major difference. it's absoluthely ok here to be touched by professional working with you. doctor, hairdresser, fitness instructor, make-up artist, photographer, trainer, lector, teacher.

I tried once to explain my first boss that I do not like him touching me. In friendly way. No use.
Lev, this is simply not true.

[dolgachov]

indeed, i don't have any paid shootings and always refuse them. that's the way i do in photography. i have other buisinesses so photography never was even part-time job for me. always hobby and always pure pleasure, nothing more. i consider myself pro, but i never ever pressed a button for money and i want to keep it that way. that's why i only shoot those i want and only if they trust me. i have a long-long list of "if you're not ready to ..... - please don't even think about working with me". this list is the first thing i give to read to any new person pretending to get to my studio. maybe that's why i never have a problems with touches.

unlike you, i have a longer than month schedule. here and know it's June-July 2008. as long as i don't take any paid jobs ever, it's very comfortable for me to have it long - it's another good filter. i want to be sure those who finally get here are really ready to work so i apply as many filters as i can. monks use similar technique in Tibet and you could see something like this made by Tyler Durden in Fight Club.

1. it's the way i do, that's why i'm talking about it.
2. it's all not so very typical and it has nothing to do in common with hired models or hired photographers. that's why i told people should use your way, not mine.

***

i'm a bit confused with your "unexpected touch" theory. what's the shooting distance you use? i can tell you it would be really hard for me to touch a model and make it unexpected. in addition, i mentioned professional and friendly touches. these are not something you do from behind or without person noticing it. these are exactly the way you hug or shake hands. 

[dolgachov]

sure i would. believe me i would. i guess where i live it's a major difference. it's absoluthely ok here to be touched by professional working with you. doctor, hairdresser, fitness instructor, make-up artist, photographer, trainer, lector, teacher.

I tried once to explain my first boss that I do not like him touching me. In friendly way. No use.
Lev, this is simply not true.

what is not true? i didn't speak about bosses. again you brang here bosses, not me. boss is not "professional working with you". in the case it was not clear, i will extend my sentance to "professional working with you as a subject". to make clear i'm not talking about colleagues or bosses. considering "friendly way" - i said "professional AND friendly way". not "professional OR friendly way".

once more: where i live it's absoluthely ok to be touched by professional working with you as a subject. doctor, hairdresser, fitness instructor, make-up artist, photographer, trainer, lector, teacher. to be touched professional and friendly way.

for example: i need a PASSPORT picture, i go to some small studio and photographer touches my hair to make my haircut look good or touches my shoulders to make me sit straight. it's ABSOLUTHELY accepted where i live as long as he does it professional and friendly way.

[Forgiss]

still i see i'm the only weirdo with such an attitude here, so....

No, not weirdo... it's just what society has become, and I, for one, am just careful.

[Talya]

1. this is relevant. one giving advices SHOULD have a good experience. one without experience can assume, but never give advices.

I do not speculate on subject, for example, how to make model trust you. If you will need a lawyer to defense you in sexual harassment case will you ask him how big his experience in photography is? I'm not a lawyer and I'm not giving a legal advice, just another example.

and Talya, where from NUDITY appeared in this discussion? we didn't discuss nudity here. nudity is something YOU just bringed in here. once we will discuss nudity i will share my experience about shooting nudes. we didn't discuss any nudity here.

I know that kind of pictures you shoot.

[dolgachov]

and Talya, where from NUDITY appeared in this discussion? we didn't discuss nudity here. nudity is something YOU just bringed in here. once we will discuss nudity i will share my experience about shooting nudes. we didn't discuss any nudity here.

I know that kind of pictures you shoot.

ohoho! and what kind of pictures i shoot, lady? please elaborate? WHAT KIND OF PICTURES I SHOOT?