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forum => International forum for English speakers => Photography => : Aleksey December 02, 2007, 08:28:29 PM

: Working with a model
: Aleksey December 02, 2007, 08:28:29 PM
You know, it's always hard to begin process of shooting a model, no matter if you working with your friend or if it is the first session with a new model. From case to case, the first dozens in session (or even all the pics) are coming with scared, closed, unnatural emotions. Do you know some tips or recommendations how to relax people under focused lense?

One of such relaxant is to setup your AF-mode for AI Servo and to ask your model to spin as fast as he/she can . Then -- start shooting  ;) I've tested this for several times -- and it is working..

I'm sure it is not the only trick, isn't it?   ::)

 
: Re: Working with a model
: khz December 03, 2007, 12:30:01 PM
i try to shoot models too nowadays,
and dolgachov is really experienced and talented on this i think,
so may be he can give some tips to us
: Re: Working with a model
: dolgachov December 03, 2007, 01:10:16 PM
communicate. always communicate.
: Re: Working with a model
: DNF-Style December 03, 2007, 09:31:09 PM
Take your time. Do not start shooting immedeatly. Start of with a drink and a talk. Find out who your model is and tell who you are.
On the floor: Indeed communicate. Explain the studio, explain the lights. Do not make your studio into a mystery. Talk in feels more then in poses. If you manage to have your model feel what you want her to express, she will. Build up trust, keep your hands away from your model. And if needed ask her first, when she gives you the ok then always tell her what you are going to do before you do it.
The better your model feels about you the more relaxed she will be. The more relaxed your model is the better she'll perform.

Frenk
: Re: Working with a model
: dolgachov December 04, 2007, 06:34:12 AM
i've recently start to completely break "keep your hands away" rule and find myself naturally touching models a lot during communication. it really works for me and makes work comfortable for both me and models. but i'm only working with those who DESPERATELY want to work with me nowadays, no exceptions, so it all starts with major trust anyway and i don't need to build up any "trust me". i'm already trusted from the very beginning. it will maybe not work out for someone else, so well, ok... keep your hands away if you're not sure, maybe...
: Re: Working with a model
: DNF-Style December 04, 2007, 09:56:16 AM
Hmm something tells me not to discuss this any further here.
: Re: Working with a model
: Syates December 04, 2007, 01:31:59 PM
Hmm something tells me not to discuss this any further here.

No problem to have different opinions here. I agree, keep your hands away from the model, this might change when you have become friends over time, but in the beginning, give the model - and yourself! space. Very important also: Give the model the possibility to bring somebody to the shoot she trusts and keep this somebody busy helping. On one of the few model shoots I did, I had also the husband of the model present and he was an absolute treasure in chatting to her (I am not very good in concentrating on shooting and chatting to the model at the same time) and after a short introduction developed also to a brilliant "reflector holder". Win-win for everybody. So in the end, everybody's experience is and will be always different, SY
: Re: Working with a model
: khz December 04, 2007, 02:27:17 PM
hi,
i think everybody has different experiences about this subject,
and main reason for this differences is every model and every concept is different,
there some things that might effect this model relation thing imo,
- concept of the shot, (business, fitness, or nude?)
- model's identity, (male, female, married, experienced or not)
- model's profession, (is she/he a friend, is model a pro, is model someone who find the photographer and never had a shooting before)

in my experiences, whatever the concept is, if the model is a female, bringing his husband or boyfriend is not a good idea, neither the model, nor the photographer would be free at the shooting,
but in location shootings with more than 1 model, bringing someone who is experienced in photo shootings can save your life if the others are not experienced,

: Re: Working with a model
: dolgachov December 05, 2007, 01:55:27 AM
khz, BINGO.

there's no universal recipe and will never be. what's good for me and you would be pain for Sybille and opposite.
: Re: Working with a model
: gRac34U December 09, 2007, 02:31:04 PM
please post sample pics of your work here.

thaks

gRac3
: Re: Working with a model
: khz December 09, 2007, 11:37:48 PM


http://www.shutterstock.com/cat.mhtml?gallery_id=62451&id=62451&sortby=newest&rows_per_page=25&thumb_size=small
: Re: Working with a model
: msdnv December 10, 2007, 03:48:45 AM
It is hard.... It is alvais hard. I fill that my hardest models are my daughters ... even the older one tell that it is very hard for her to model for me ... mutch more easyer to model for some oter photographer ...  :(

http://www.shutterstock.com/cat.mhtml?searchterm=&anyorall=all&search_cat=&search_group=all&orient=all&photographer_name=Darja+Vorontsova&searchtermx=&color=
: Re: Working with a model
: DNF-Style December 10, 2007, 10:04:54 AM
Wait wait wait.
This topic is about modelling and threatening to go into post your portofolio?
SY please split this one. Order into chaos.
: Re: Working with a model
: Syates December 10, 2007, 02:03:06 PM
Wait wait wait.
This topic is about modelling and threatening to go into post your portofolio?
SY please split this one. Order into chaos.

Nops, a forum is dynamic and evolving, you start a discussion in one point and then you end up somewhere else. Too much moderation only kills conversation. Both portfolio links contained models, so no problem at all. SY
: Re: Working with a model
: Aleksey December 10, 2007, 02:11:03 PM
..Both portfolio links contained models..
but not the work with them..  :-[

you start a discussion in one point and then you end up somewhere else.
so, why was the offtopic brunch created?
: Re: Working with a model
: Syates December 10, 2007, 02:18:40 PM
so, why was the offtopic brunch created?

For topics that have, from the beginning, nothing to do with (micro)(stock)photography, only because a topic evolves into a slightly different direction I will not moderate it, Aleksey and others, feel free to start a thread in "off topic" about forum moderation  ;D SY
: Re: Working with a model
: DNF-Style December 10, 2007, 02:23:47 PM
sorry ;D
: Re: Working with a model
: Aleksey December 10, 2007, 03:20:03 PM
For topics that have, from the beginning, nothing to do with (micro)(stock)photography, only because a topic evolves into a slightly different direction I will not moderate it, Aleksey and others, feel free to start a thread in "off topic" about forum moderation  ;D SY
but in field of photography there is no strongly different directions..

there are different kinds of topics (discussions, eploring, mind storms etc..) and the easiest direction is from any kind => to links exchange..

can you imagine yourself on a place of next speaker in this topic who knows about "working with model" and want to share this.. you see links on portfolio and this conversation.. is here any neat from the first question? but this is still not oftopic... it is all about photography..

: Re: Working with a model
: Aleksey December 10, 2007, 03:51:26 PM
oops sory..
: Re: Working with a model
: Syates December 11, 2007, 01:19:07 AM
Nobody has to be sorry! Now back to "working with models"!
I found this on the web, it is not digital and it is not stock but I think it has a unique view about working with models: http://art.webesteem.pl/11/dorfman_en.php What do you think? SY
: Re: Working with a model
: kourafas5 December 11, 2007, 04:04:35 PM
Nobody has to be sorry! Now back to "working with models"!
I found this on the web, it is not digital and it is not stock but I think it has a unique view about working with models: http://art.webesteem.pl/11/dorfman_en.php What do you think? SY

Interesting Sy. She is very close to me. Maybe I will stop by her studio and see that camera!
: Re: Working with a model
: Syates December 19, 2007, 01:58:59 AM
Interesting Sy. She is very close to me. Maybe I will stop by her studio and see that camera!

If you ever do so please tell us all about, the studio as sacred space, fascinating concept. SY
: Re: Working with a model
: DNF-Style December 19, 2007, 12:12:57 PM
Do you really think she still has that camera? I guess it will be in a museum by now.

Frenk
: Re: Working with a model
: Syates December 19, 2007, 02:10:19 PM
Do you really think she still has that camera? I guess it will be in a museum by now.

Frenk

Nops, here is her web site (http://www.elsa.photo.net) and on the front page is she with the little monster  ;D SY
: Re: Working with a model
: DNF-Style December 19, 2007, 02:56:39 PM
wow very unique
: Re: Working with a model
: Forgiss December 26, 2007, 07:07:56 PM
we have some video of us working with models on our podcast site: http://forgiss.libsyn.com

As a general rule:

Communicate beforehand what you want to achieve

Stay within your brief

Never touch a model!

Always have an assistant in the room with you (really... at all times!)

No alcohol or other substances in the studio
(one reason is legal, the other is what it does to skin and post production editing... same for cigarettes)
: Re: Working with a model
: dolgachov December 26, 2007, 07:46:25 PM
how different we really are.

indeed,

1. i'm always co-operating with model in destroying all the briefs and look where fantasy will possibly lead us.
2. i do touch models as much as i need to. i lectured practical psychology though, so it's easy for me to see if we are on the same "wave" with model, and she/he never get any touches she/he might have some objection for. and touch mean touch. not something intimate one could possibly think. the way fitness instructors or doctors touch you. ot your mother/brother/sister. natural, professional and friendly.
3. when my assistance sees model needs more privacy to act free, my assistaint always leaves me and model alone, going to other room.
4. i use cigarettes, cigars, water, oil, chocolate, dirt, paint, joghurt, wine, whiskey, champagne, fruits and vegetables, shampoo, soap bubbles - whatever it takes to shoot the things i want.

considering alcohol: i never allow models to drink nowadays unless i'm shooting drinking model, but if i do - model drinks, no problem. once it took half a bottle of whiskey to shoot this one for example:

(http://69.90.174.247/photos/display_pic_with_logo/64260/64260,1152824090,2.jpg)

it was ages ago, something like more than year ago i believe. picture is not so good. but as an example. ;]
: Re: Working with a model
: Forgiss December 26, 2007, 07:50:13 PM
My concerns about Touch, Alcohol and Assistants come from Legal problems which may arise...
: Re: Working with a model
: realdealphoto December 26, 2007, 08:11:38 PM
Working with models is just like working with other people in any other situation. It all boils down to communication and respect. If those things are present in the working relationship it will all come together.

There are lots of variables in how to handle individual situations that may arise but in the end if you are respectfully communicating with your model you will find the working environment agreeable to both of you.

Personally I am with Forgiss in the way I choose to work in the studio. I have a strict no touch policy. I only touch a model after asking for permission, unless of course the model is someone I have worked with before and I already have the permission for simple pose, hair, wardrobe adjustments that might require me to touch her. I prefer to have a female assistant or make up artist on the set with me and have her make the adjustments in most cases. Having the 3rd party in the room also disallows any possibility of the he said / she said situation should a dispute arise from the session.

I will allow a model of legal age to have a drink if she desires one but only one if she is driving herself and never will I allow a model to become intoxicated in the studio. I do not allow smoking in the studio unless it is a key element in a commercial shot.

Above all else I maintain the control in the shoot while in the studio. After all the model is there to work for me so I maintain the relationship on an employee / employee basis and find that this helps a great deal.
: Re: Working with a model
: dolgachov December 26, 2007, 08:37:40 PM
so touch and assistants are about rape and harrassment stuff?
as long as i never shoot for money and i only work with those desperately wanting to work with me and are ready to wait for a few months to get my time it's not a real issue for me.

ok i can IMAGINE some crazy model would possibly want to hurt me, contact me, do all the things i'll ask het to do to get here, wait for a few months, then wait until assistaint leaves us alone then wait until i'll touch her then what? scream? ok, i'll call assistaint and police first. and second, if she wants to hurt me anyway, she'll not need me to touch her. she'll wait untill assistant goes out to toilet for examlpe then screams. so what's the difference? i believe your assistaint leaves you with model alone for a minute sometimes. we are all humans so assistaints eat and sh$t too.

so entire situation is let's say as possible as woman coming to your house asking for water or phone call then scream.

as long as you don't touch anybody bad or offensive way i don't think there's any REAL risk present. i would not advice anyone to touch anybody as long as some idiot decides it's ok, would act stupid and touch somebody the way he shouldn't, still i don't think "never touch" rule has something to do with trust and creative co-operation with model. it's all personal though. me, in person, will deny working with model if i would know she/he has a problems with me touching her/him professional and friendly way. i only shoot those who do the things i say and i ask to the way i want. no exceptions.

considering alcohol - what legal problems can alcohol cause if you shoot legal age ones? i repeat, i only allow alcohol in case i need it IN FRAME. (applies to smoke and food. model smokes or eats only if i need it IN FRAME). i never allow alcohol anymore to get model relaxed - it's wrong. instead of relaxed you always get one who can't really make a work. but as long as i need to shoot something about alcohol - i don't see any problems it can possibly cause. unless you get some crazy model again who drinks then starts to scream or crash everything. chances are, but some chances to something always are. we're not sitting at home at barocameras like Michael Jackson anyway. so chances always are. we can get killed, raped, get poor, go to jail and have a problem with some model. chanses always are and one must weight them on for himself to see what's real dangerous and what's more of paranoia for his particular work. any work with people is a possible risk.

it's all personal, again. i just mentioned how different we are. what one considers rule, it thing other considers "no-no" and vice versa. ;]
: Re: Working with a model
: Forgiss December 26, 2007, 08:44:07 PM
so touch and assistants are about rape and harrassment stuff?...

...it's all personal, again. i just mentioned how different we are. what one considers rule, it thing other considers "no-no" and vice versa. ;]

It's just my own "best practice" rules for my business based on local Labour Law and Terms of Employment (part time or full time)
: Re: Working with a model
: dolgachov December 26, 2007, 08:50:49 PM
i think i maybe forgot you employ models. it changes things, sure. for those who hires models all posible "no-no" things should work. so yes, i think your practice is more useful for most of those who read us here then mine.

so please anybody reading us, keep in mind the things i say about the way i work can be NEVER applied to any possible sort of work when you hire models or models hire you. if any "employment (part time or full time)" is involved, please read the rules DNF-Style, Forgiss ans realdealphoto wrote here and take them as a law.
: Re: Working with a model
: Talya December 26, 2007, 09:42:53 PM
I guess, you may let your assistant go to a bathroom, but for the rest of time assistant must be in the studio.
She does not need to scream. She will leave your studio drank (or even get drank after as you let to know everybody that alcohol is not forbidden in your studio), obtain some record  (police record for minor crime, for example). Then when one of her pictures appear in glamor magazine, she will say that  your force her to take nude (or close) photo, then sign a release. Even if nothing of this will stay in court (but it may), this is not the kind of publicity you want. I do not see how money paid/received make any difference in this situation.
: Re: Working with a model
: realdealphoto December 26, 2007, 09:56:28 PM
For me the No Touch without permission is first and foremost simply about respect.

Lev I would never presume that you would be agreeable to my touching you in the course of a normal conversation or even in the course of a photoshoot. I have a respect for ones personal space and will not as a general rule of conduct violate or enter that personal space in any way without prior permission. Where a model is concerned I ask that permission each and every time I need to touch her. If I have worked with her many times I may only ask the firsttime duruing the session but as it has become habitual for me to ask it is most likely I would still ask "May I?" each and everytime I needed to touch her. Again it is simply about respect and because I show the model that respect I have never had one refuse to allow me to make any adjustments I felt were needed to obtain the shot I wanted.

All the legal issues are of course very much true, especially here in the US where society is so litigious. Here I don't need to be guilty of doing anything wrong to find myself in a situation where I have to defend myself against accusations. So the more bases I keep covered to protect myself the better.

A model may full well understand the way I work and my expectations, rules etc. when she comes into the studio but nothing is to say that she can not become upset during or after the shoot and if she does there is nothing to prevent her from making claims, be they true or false does not matter, they then have to be defended. So if I am never alone with a model and do not touch her without verbal permission and have witnesses to the same then I am better able to defend myself should the need arise. So far it never has but I must as a business person always be ready for the day that some model goes Bat Shit crazy on me.
: Re: Working with a model
: dolgachov December 26, 2007, 09:59:43 PM
Talya, how big is your experience with real models studio work?

did you ever sign a real relase with model? i mean WITH WITNESS?

1. how the fantasy you just gave us can apply to models who sign releases WITH WITNESS after shoothing sessions?
2. should i bring assistant with me EVERYWHERE now? to be sure i never ever stay tete-a-tete with anyone? becouse if i'll stay, person will get drunk, makes a minor crime and says in court i forced her to get drunk, naked and criminal? ;]
: Re: Working with a model
: dolgachov December 26, 2007, 10:08:48 PM
For me the No Touch without permission is first and foremost simply about respect.

Lev I would never presume that you would be agreeable to my touching you in the course of a normal conversation or even in the course of a photoshoot.

sure i would. believe me i would. i guess where i live it's a major difference. it's absoluthely ok here to be touched by professional working with you. doctor, hairdresser, fitness instructor, make-up artist, photographer, trainer, lector, teacher.

indeed, the things you say sound so strange for me. like "you should never look at woman in vail". thanks for warning me. once i'll find myself shooting anybody in States, i'll be awared. still sounds so very strange for me. i never work with anybody i don't have a major trust relationships with, so touch is really nothing. first thing i do when i meet new model is a handshake or hug. when model actually appears in my studio it's eather hug or friendly kiss. not the way lovers kiss, the way you kiss your daughter. we are together in studio to make an art. touch is a natural part of communication.

still i see i'm the only weirdo with such an attitude here, so again my advice to anybody - please don't try it my way. and please don't ever try it when any employment involved.
: Re: Working with a model
: Talya December 26, 2007, 10:26:01 PM
Talya, how big is your experience with real models studio work?
How does that relevant? You assume for some reason that photography is something unique with no relations to the rest of the world.  I honestly believe you know other way to discuss any subject than "shut up you do not have an experience".  ;)
I was curious  about sexual harassment crime at some point and that made me follow some cases.
Yes, I did sign a real model release with witness, as a photographer, as a model, as a witness and as a parent. More than once for each. Witness signature is the reason why I said I doubt that it will stay in court. No, you do not have to have a witness every minutes of your life but your relations with model is a business (does not matter if nobody get paid immediately). I would say anybody should better have a witness of any business done around nudity just to be safe.
: Re: Working with a model
: dolgachov December 26, 2007, 10:39:14 PM
1. this is relevant. one giving advices SHOULD have a good experience. one without experience can assume, but never give advices.

and Talya, where from NUDITY appeared in this discussion? we didn't discuss nudity here. nudity is something YOU just bringed in here. once we will discuss nudity i will share my experience abouth shooting nudes. we didn't discuss any nudity here.
: Re: Working with a model
: realdealphoto December 26, 2007, 10:41:39 PM
Ah but see Lev, a handshake or a hug are all actions that the other person acknowledges and agrees to before the contact is made. You extend your hand, I accept it and we shake hands. You open your arms, I open mine and accept the hug. So you see in those situations the permission is there, even if not verbal.

With Barbers, Doctors etc. I know going in that they need to touch me and again my agreement to the contact is implied by my very presence. The touch is absolutely necessary in order for them to do their jobs. As a photographer though the same is not true. I can make a photograph without you having any reasonable expectation that I will need to touch you. That is not to say that you won't need to touch me but unless I know it going in I would not anticipate that it would be required.

With a model for me again it is more about respecting the personal space then anything else. While I do make it known to the model in advance that I may need to touch her to communicate a pose or adjust her hair or wardrobe, I still feel that for me it is appropriate to simply ask permission before touching her. For me it is a show of respect.

Like you a lot of the girls I work with while of legal age are still quite young and I don't want them to leave my studio misunderstanding anything that occurred while they were there. Unlike you I often work with models who are absolute strangers to me. Oftentimes I have only seen a few photos of her and exchanged a few emails to arrange the shoot. In most cases I do not actually meet the model until she walks through the doors of the studio so the trust factor is not already inherently in place. I have to build it from the moment I meet my model.

Don't get me wrong, I m not saying that the way you work with your models is wrong, as you have already said, you already know your model by the time she gets to the studio. For most of us though that is not the case. I as a general rule only book my shoot calendar 30 days in advance because I don't like to fill it up with TFP shoots and then have to cancel them because a paid shoot came along. Even at 30 days in advance I sometimes will have to cancel in favor of a paid assignment so I keep the scheduling as short as possible.
: Re: Working with a model
: Talya December 26, 2007, 10:56:33 PM

sure i would. believe me i would. i guess where i live it's a major difference. it's absoluthely ok here to be touched by professional working with you. doctor, hairdresser, fitness instructor, make-up artist, photographer, trainer, lector, teacher.
I tried once to explain my first boss that I do not like him touching me. In friendly way. No use.
Lev, this is simply not true.
: Re: Working with a model
: dolgachov December 26, 2007, 10:59:49 PM
indeed, i don't have any paid shootings and always refuse them. that's the way i do in photography. i have other buisinesses so photography never was even part-time job for me. always hobby and always pure pleasure, nothing more. i consider myself pro, but i never ever pressed a button for money and i want to keep it that way. that's why i only shoot those i want and only if they trust me. i have a long-long list of "if you're not ready to ..... - please don't even think about working with me". this list is the first thing i give to read to any new person pretending to get to my studio. maybe that's why i never have a problems with touches.

unlike you, i have a longer than month schedule. here and know it's June-July 2008. as long as i don't take any paid jobs ever, it's very comfortable for me to have it long - it's another good filter. i want to be sure those who finally get here are really ready to work so i apply as many filters as i can. monks use similar technique in Tibet and you could see something like this made by Tyler Durden in Fight Club.

1. it's the way i do, that's why i'm talking about it.
2. it's all not so very typical and it has nothing to do in common with hired models or hired photographers. that's why i told people should use your way, not mine.

***

i'm a bit confused with your "unexpected touch" theory. what's the shooting distance you use? i can tell you it would be really hard for me to touch a model and make it unexpected. in addition, i mentioned professional and friendly touches. these are not something you do from behind or without person noticing it. these are exactly the way you hug or shake hands. 
: Re: Working with a model
: dolgachov December 26, 2007, 11:03:35 PM

sure i would. believe me i would. i guess where i live it's a major difference. it's absoluthely ok here to be touched by professional working with you. doctor, hairdresser, fitness instructor, make-up artist, photographer, trainer, lector, teacher.
I tried once to explain my first boss that I do not like him touching me. In friendly way. No use.
Lev, this is simply not true.

what is not true? i didn't speak about bosses. again you brang here bosses, not me. boss is not "professional working with you". in the case it was not clear, i will extend my sentance to "professional working with you as a subject". to make clear i'm not talking about colleagues or bosses. considering "friendly way" - i said "professional AND friendly way". not "professional OR friendly way".

once more: where i live it's absoluthely ok to be touched by professional working with you as a subject. doctor, hairdresser, fitness instructor, make-up artist, photographer, trainer, lector, teacher. to be touched professional and friendly way.

for example: i need a PASSPORT picture, i go to some small studio and photographer touches my hair to make my haircut look good or touches my shoulders to make me sit straight. it's ABSOLUTHELY accepted where i live as long as he does it professional and friendly way.
: Re: Working with a model
: Forgiss December 26, 2007, 11:13:31 PM
still i see i'm the only weirdo with such an attitude here, so....

No, not weirdo... it's just what society has become, and I, for one, am just careful.

: Re: Working with a model
: Talya December 26, 2007, 11:18:02 PM
1. this is relevant. one giving advices SHOULD have a good experience. one without experience can assume, but never give advices.
I do not speculate on subject, for example, how to make model trust you. If you will need a lawyer to defense you in sexual harassment case will you ask him how big his experience in photography is? I'm not a lawyer and I'm not giving a legal advice, just another example.

and Talya, where from NUDITY appeared in this discussion? we didn't discuss nudity here. nudity is something YOU just bringed in here. once we will discuss nudity i will share my experience about shooting nudes. we didn't discuss any nudity here.
I know that kind of pictures you shoot.
: Re: Working with a model
: dolgachov December 26, 2007, 11:33:27 PM


and Talya, where from NUDITY appeared in this discussion? we didn't discuss nudity here. nudity is something YOU just bringed in here. once we will discuss nudity i will share my experience about shooting nudes. we didn't discuss any nudity here.
I know that kind of pictures you shoot.

ohoho! and what kind of pictures i shoot, lady? please elaborate? WHAT KIND OF PICTURES I SHOOT?
: Re: Working with a model
: dolgachov December 26, 2007, 11:47:00 PM
No, not weirdo... it's just what society has become, and I, for one, am just careful.

i guess if i had photography as a job i would maybe act the same way, Sean.
: Re: Working with a model
: Syates December 26, 2007, 11:50:16 PM

ohoho! and what kind of pictures i shoot, lady? please elaborate? WHAT KIND OF PICTURES I SHOOT?

Lev, stop shouting, and btw everybody here knows what kind of pictures you shoot > Artistic&nude is most of your portfolio. So please people calm down or this thread gets a 24h rest  ;D SY
: Re: Working with a model
: dolgachov December 26, 2007, 11:51:44 PM
Artictic nude is MOST of my portfolio? you're serious, Sybille?
: Re: Working with a model
: Syates December 26, 2007, 11:57:13 PM
Artictic nude is MOST of my portfolio? you're serious, Sybille?

Yes, but with nude I don't mean necessarily without cloths I mean this "erotic-sex-appeal" feeling that MOST of your images have. Lev, that is in no way a negative remark, quite the opposite actually  ;D SY
: Re: Working with a model
: dolgachov December 27, 2007, 12:31:53 AM
i really need an explaination to "I know that kind of pictures you shoot". what KIND of pictures i shoot? less than 10% of my portfolio contains any nudity. so what KIND of pictures i shoot?

considering nudity.

there's a definition for nudity. it's not "sex-appeal".

nude  (nd, nyd)
adj. nud·er, nud·est
1. Having no clothing; naked.
2. Permitting or featuring full exposure of the body: a nude beach.
3. Law Lacking any of various legal requisites, such as evidence.
n.
1. An unclothed human figure, especially an artistic representation.
2. The condition of being unclothed.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/nudity

i never EVER had most of my images nude. i could have 110% of my pictures nude and would be proud of it, but i have less than 10% of my images containing nudity and about 85% of portfolio not content filtered on most modest stocksites. so what KIND of pictures i shoot? and why one starts to point at ME when i ask where she took nudity from to use in this discussion?

any nudity, Talya, is inside your mind now. more than 90% of my work contains no nudity so things i say IN GENERAL are not any possible way connected to any nudity. please never ever point a finger at me with "i know what kind of pictures you shoot". if you think most of my pictures are nude, you have no idea what kind of pictures i shoot.
: Re: Working with a model
: Talya December 27, 2007, 02:00:41 AM
once more: where i live it's absoluthely ok to be touched by professional working with you as a subject. doctor, hairdresser, fitness instructor, make-up artist, photographer, trainer, lector, teacher. to be touched professional and friendly way.
Ok. I do not expect photographer who makes passport photo to touch me, at least not without asking first. Not here in USA, not in Russia. I may say nothing but I doubt I will evere come again. I do not expect my karate sensei to touch me and somehow he never did in three years. There is very limited list of classes where I would expect teacher to touch me without asking.
I brought boss here not because he was a boss but because he really, truly did not believe that not everybody is OK with his friendly "touch". Hopefully it is not your case. Probably you are really a person whom everybody trusts and does not mind to be touched. Just in case you will understand me wrong again: this is a good thing in my book to be such person. Maybe I totally wrong and thing are totally different in Estonia. But in Russia people tend to underestimate discomfort they cause by interventing in personal space or touch somebody even in professional and friendly way. I guess because of so many years of using overloaded public transportation  ;D
: Re: Working with a model
: Talya December 27, 2007, 02:24:54 AM
Lev, I'm really sorry. I did not mean anything wrong. I will put it in capital letters, if needed. I really like your photos. I think you do great job, very creative, artistic, technically perfect. I think your subject is great, your models are beautiful, I enjoy looking at your photos, including nude ones.

Let roll back. You asked what possible can happend and I give you an example what possible can happend in your case. 10% is more than enough for that. If you were shooting crocodiles alive I would also think you should not touch your model but for completelly different reason.  ;D

Another example, not photography but very professional. Our family doctor refused recently to see my ten years old son for annual check-up without my presence. They have a police which forbid a physician to be left alone with kid. If they have to they must have nurse at the same room all the time. He said he has a friend who was sued by a mother who based her story on 8-yearold son complains. his friend did not lost practice completelly but they had to move and whole thing cost him a fortune. As my physician said this is only one case between hundreds of doctors he knows but he does not want to take chances here.
: Re: Working with a model
: dolgachov December 27, 2007, 02:35:29 AM
i was born in Russia, i grew up in Russia and i teached people practical psychology in Russia. i never experienced touch issues in Russia. i touched people and people touched me. no real difference with Estonia. i see friends - we touch and shake hands. Estonia is much more "cold" than Russia. Still Estonia is no problem to touch.

i studied matrial arts too and was touched by my teachers on regular basis. i was also touched by my teachers in school and University, both in Russia and Estonia. i was touched by my psychology trainers. i'm touched by people in my shop every day. i walk by, people touch my hand and ask "can you please help me?". it's absoluthely natural and ok. touch is a way of communication. i meet my models or friends i didn't see for a lont time - we hug. once i meet Italian people - we hug and kiss if we have common friends. i had very few times in my life i told "don't touch me" to those who i really disliked, mostly drunk strangers on parties. and i can't remember single time i've heard "don't touch me". well, maybe few times from my girlfriends or wifes when they were in dramatic mood like "nobody likes me, i hate the world, please don't touch me, please don't look at me, i'm awful", but it really has nothing to do with touch.

if you'll be on SX conference in Moscow this spring i will make a show for you. i'll touch 30 or 50 people in a row in a front of you. in Russia you're talking about. nobody will have a problem with it. or even better - i'll ask people and 50 people in a row will touch me. perfect strangers. i can also touch SX people from Hungary and America in a front of you and you'll see it will not make any objection. i hope you'll see it's ok and has NOTHING to do with any harrassment.

if Sean, Frenk or Bobby will come, i will touch them and let them touch me.

i will not touch you, but once you'll feel it's ok for you to touch me, i'll say thank you when you'll do ;]

***

still you didn't answer the question , what KIND of pictures i shoot.
: Re: Working with a model
: Syates December 27, 2007, 02:44:57 AM
If you were shooting crocodiles alive I would also think you should not touch your model but for completelly different reason.  ;D

Talya, that absolutely made my day! SOOO funny, ROFL!!!! SY
: Re: Working with a model
: Talya December 27, 2007, 02:46:06 AM
Erotic, at least good part of them. I may intent something else, I do not know, but this is an impression I and all other people I discussed your photos with got from your portfolio.
: Re: Working with a model
: dolgachov December 27, 2007, 02:47:48 AM
Lev, I'm really sorry. I did not mean anything wrong. I will put it in capital letters, if needed. I really like your photos. I think you do great job, very creative, artistic, technically perfect. I think your subject is great, your models are beautiful, I enjoy looking at your photos, including nude ones.

Let roll back. You asked what possible can happend and I give you an example what possible can happend in your case. 10% is more than enough for that. If you were shooting crocodiles alive I would also think you should not touch your model but for completelly different reason.  ;D

Another example, not photography but very professional. Our family doctor refused recently to see my ten years old son for annual check-up without my presence. They have a police which forbid a physician to be left alone with kid. If they have to they must have nurse at the same room all the time. He said he has a friend who was sued by a mother who based her story on 8-yearold son complains. his friend did not lost practice completelly but they had to move and whole thing cost him a fortune. As my physician said this is only one case between hundreds of doctors he knows but he does not want to take chances here.

1. if i was working with tigers or crocodiles, I WOULD touch them. sure and 100%. it's maybe hard to believe for you or Sybille and will make you laugh but I WOULD. how can you really make something good with such a borders. animal trainer could be affraid to touch tiger and still be trainer, but will never go big with such a limits. same applies to photography. i never shoot other people realities - i create realities. and if i need a touch in photographic reality i create - sure i will touch. how can i create within such a limits? it would be ridiculous for me to be limited with "no touch" stuff in art creation. touch is nothing comparing to psycological connection we have with model when working really good.

i said and i repeat it doesn't apply to commercial stuff guys were talking about. if i'd shoot hired models or if i'd shoot as a hired master i would most probably act within "ask before touching" rule. it only applies to "please make some art with me, Mr. Dolgachov" situations, but i only have this kind of situations in my work.

2. scary story about the doctor. i can also give a lot of scary stories of famous people being sued for fake rapes. so not being famous is much safer too. one chooses a life. to be famous or to pretend he's safe. to touch tigers or to be nothing more than average animal trainer. to call police when being blackmailed or to be scared and search for money he thinks he should pay to criminals. life is simple. 
: Re: Working with a model
: dolgachov December 27, 2007, 02:50:11 AM
Erotic, at least good part of them. I may intent something else, I do not know, but this is an impression I and all other people I discussed your photos with got from your portfolio.

once more, 85% of my pictures are not content filtered on most modest stocksites. so why you pointed your finger at me with "i know what KIND of pictures you shoot" when i asked where did you take an idea we are talking about nudes here?
: Re: Working with a model
: Talya December 27, 2007, 03:07:22 AM
To Lev
There is a difference between being scared and buying an insurance, do not you thing?

And I do not understand why you are drawing line between you and other photograthers. In both cases it is a business. You did not get pay for shooting, but you sell them late. Models do not get money but they get great photos they probably would never get otherwise. I do not understand why your rules would suddenly change if you will get paid or pay somebody.

BTW, I got master degree in pschycology from russian university and I can recall only two special trainings where touching was involved.


*****

Lev:

1. to get real good is ALWAYS a step out of comfort zone.

2. becouse the way we work is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE. traditional way is to "keep your distance", my way is to "break the borders".
i'll clarify "paid" issue you don't undrestand yet. once one is paid, the other one virtually starts baing a "boss" you mentioned in your harrassment memories.

3. you've got master degree in psychology and have a problems with people touching you? amazing.
: Re: Working with a model
: Talya December 27, 2007, 03:16:18 AM
Erotic, at least good part of them. I may intent something else, I do not know, but this is an impression I and all other people I discussed your photos with got from your portfolio.
once more, 85% of my pictures are not content filtered on most modest stocksites. so why you pointed your finger at me with "i know what KIND of pictures you shoot" when i asked where did you take an idea we are talking about nudes here?
15% is enough to give an example. You take some nude photo with some models. And the rest of them are still erotic even if they are not filtered. It is not necessary.
You know, I have a question too.  Why did you get so mad about this issue? is it something wrong with shooting nude? Just curious.
: Re: Working with a model
: dolgachov December 27, 2007, 03:25:56 AM
And the rest of them are still erotic even if they are not filtered.

1. so you pretend to know what i shoot better than i do?


You know, I have a question too.  Why did you get so mad about this issue? is it something wrong with shooting nude? Just curious.

becouse you mixed the things i say IN GENERAL with nudity. becouse i was talking about touching. and you mixed it with nudity. and i didn't say anything about shooting nudes. involving nudity makes an impression i touch nude models the way i described my work in general wich would be ABSOLUTE LIE. working with nude models, wich is less than 10% of my work is a separate issue where absoluthely other rules applied. noone said "nude" before you did it here. so i'm asking again - who gave you a right to say here you know what i shoot when you really have no idea what i shoot?

am i stepping up with "i know what you snoot?" am i? am i connect the way you work with making an impression you work with nude models same way you work in general? am i telling you "and rest of them are still the way i say they are" about your works?

you have no idea how i work when i shoot nudes. i never told you how i work with nudes. never ever bring nudity issue into discussion any more when talking about me and my way of working unless we are really speaking about nude photography. you say "15% is ok to give an example". what #@#$$ example? am i giving any "examples" connecting you with touching nudes? i don't. you say "personal space"? well it's you who's really touching personal space here by mixing nudity with the way i work first, saying you know what KIND of pictures i shoot better than me second and saying 10% of my portfolio is enough to think the things i say in general are connected with nude photography.

never. ever. do it. anymore. period.
: Re: Working with a model
: Syates December 27, 2007, 03:32:51 AM
Time for a couples of hours rest for this topic, it will be unlocked tomorrow. SY
: Re: Working with a model
: Talya December 27, 2007, 03:35:29 AM
SY, lev said he would not touch me so we are not going to kill each other, common :)
: Re: Working with a model
: Syates December 27, 2007, 04:05:56 AM
Lev, this topic is locked until tomorrow for everybody to calm down. As you are an admin on this forum you will be still able to post, but nobody else can reply. Please take also a pause until tomorrow. Thanks SY
: Re: Working with a model
: Syates December 27, 2007, 06:01:31 AM
Can we please go back to the original posters question:

You know, it's always hard to begin process of shooting a model, no matter if you working with your friend or if it is the first session with a new model. From case to case, the first dozens in session (or even all the pics) are coming with scared, closed, unnatural emotions. Do you know some tips or recommendations how to relax people under focused lense?

One of such relaxant is to setup your AF-mode for AI Servo and to ask your model to spin as fast as he/she can . Then -- start shooting  ;) I've tested this for several times -- and it is working..

I'm sure it is not the only trick, isn't it?   ::)

 
: Re: Working with a model
: Lvnel December 30, 2007, 02:02:28 PM
Can we please go back to the original posters question:

You know, it's always hard to begin process of shooting a model, no matter if you working with your friend or if it is the first session with a new model. From case to case, the first dozens in session (or even all the pics) are coming with scared, closed, unnatural emotions. Do you know some tips or recommendations how to relax people under focused lense?

One of such relaxant is to setup your AF-mode for AI Servo and to ask your model to spin as fast as he/she can . Then -- start shooting  ;) I've tested this for several times -- and it is working..

I'm sure it is not the only trick, isn't it?   ::)

 

I started doing test shoots - it helps me to get to know the model before I hire her for a job with a make-up and styling. I explain to a model that in the test shoot she gets to see how we work, how she works, test lights against her skin.

Meanwhile, we make lost of jokes, have very nice coffee, ask all kind of silly questions. Usually a test shoot ends up being a great shoot with good iamges for sale.

Test shoots are strictly TFC. And not longer than an hour. I see with non-professional models they cannot actually perform for longer than an hour (or I cannot get them to do so), so I rather schedule another shoot than try and squeeze all my ideas in one.

Before time I speak a lot with models about stock and my shooting style. I discuss everything I want to do, and then, just like Lev, I wait for the model to start breaking the brief. But first I want to see how the model will react to my direction - I do not have such a strong personality as Lev and need to put quite a bit of guidelines so that the model does not run away with my shoot.

Personal preference: I try to keep the atmosphere in the studio free from sexual compliments and swearwords. We work with a lot of different stylists and make-up artists and I want to make sure that we can all work at ease with each other, in a balanced, professional way. You never know who takes offence at what.

And best of all my realxing methods is - my great assistant - Sean! He is a stand-up comedian by nature and can make anyone feel at ease.
: Re: Working with a model
: Forgiss December 30, 2007, 02:08:48 PM
Hahaha...

"Have you heard the one about the duck in the bar?" TrrrrDishH!!

: Re: Working with a model
: Lvnel December 30, 2007, 02:23:45 PM
About the whole stay with the model - touch model thing:

Its sad that physical touch became grounds of manipulation. I was not aware of this when living in Ukraine, but once we came to RSA, I saw how many people misuse the small, silly touch and use it to damage the life of the "toucher".

So now we watch each others backs and never ever leave the other person (Sean, my husband) with oposite sex model. Although my testimony in court will not stand, as I am the wife, at least I can still be a witness.

And different things work for different people - Lev has his very strong shooting style with awesome results, and the models most probably speak to each other and discuss his shooting style, don't they? So they know how it will work, and I am sure we can see from Lev's established integrity that he can make anybody feel comfortable - you can also see it in his models eyes.

Our models enjoy the fact that they will not be touched (repeatedly used models), maybe because so far the commercial type of modelling is not developed in South Africa and this kind of models are seen as just a pretty face and a bum, and sometimes they tell hair raising stories of what happens at the shoots.

So girls end up bringing mothers and boyfriends to all their shoots, or a gang of girls. Its very hard now to establish a different image of photographer and we get to work extra hard.

: Re: Working with a model
: DNF-Style December 30, 2007, 02:35:18 PM
I find it very interesting to read about the different ways in different countries and how photographers feel they have to deal with it.
Especially where it is also country dependent.
Even district related haha since we start almost every encounter with three kisses for the model and three kisses for the MUA. During the shoot I have developed a good way to steer the model with my hands without the need to approach her. Wiich is much easier since I can steer and take shots at the same time. MUA keeps an eye on make-up and clothes.

But even without touching (and I do touch when needed and after I asked if it's ok) I come much closer to my models then anybody will ever do. Many times I crawl into their minds to get the righjt emotion out. I use method acting for this and since I am vvery sensitive for other peoples feeling models that worked with me for the first time tent to call my shoots fun and psychological. Most up onto laughter and sometimes into tears. But always feeling good about it.


Frenk
: Re: Working with a model
: Forgiss December 30, 2007, 02:38:12 PM
In the last podcast I uploaded, there is a part where I am explaining to a girl how I want her to lick the lollipop. The shot didn't work at all, but it gives you a good idea about how we work:

http://forgiss.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=290768
: Re: Working with a model
: Lvnel December 30, 2007, 02:42:27 PM
Even district related haha since we start almost every encounter with three kisses for the model and three kisses for the MUA.
Frenk

I thought you are french (I was amazed at their ability to kiss everyone when we were in France), now I see you speak Dutch  ;)
: Re: Working with a model
: DNF-Style January 04, 2008, 02:44:56 PM
Even district related haha since we start almost every encounter with three kisses for the model and three kisses for the MUA.
Frenk

I thought you are french (I was amazed at their ability to kiss everyone when we were in France), now I see you speak Dutch  ;)
Yep we are dutch. I have a german father and we live in Belgium directly near the dutch border. But french, sometimes in bed only ;-) ;D

@Sean: Did you tried to lick that l;olly or attack it with your tongue haha.
Why don't you use an rf trigger to trigger your flashes. These things cost zip nowadays and make that you do not have to wait for you flash to reload, your batteries to be empty or forget to turn your flash when you turn your cam.
Enjoyed the vid.
: Re: Working with a model
: Forgiss January 04, 2008, 11:56:48 PM
Why don't you use an rf trigger to trigger your flashes.

Coming soon to a shoot near you. couldn't find a supplier of pocket wizzards here in SA, but we are aiming to get some next month :D

The flash units only need a slight change in light to trigger, so the extra flash is never flat, but it's heavy... it's just a make-shift sollution.
: Re: Working with a model
: vpics January 05, 2008, 12:37:31 AM
I use the Kepcor flash trigger that works really well.

http://www.speedgraphic.co.uk/prod.asp?i=6299&1=Kepcor+IR+Flash+Trigger (http://www.speedgraphic.co.uk/prod.asp?i=6299&1=Kepcor+IR+Flash+Trigger)

On that modelling question. I work a lot with models who are not professionals and most of them are quite young. Had a shoot before Christmas with 44 models in one day, actually, in five hours to be precise and that was a tour de force. Okay, there were two longish breaks in between. There are few things:

1 - I only touch the models on the arms or on the back of the heads, brush hair out of the way and those things and only if I have to. Usually it's not important to have physical contact with them.

2 - Talking and making your models feel comfortable is very important. Most of the models are younger than me (yes, some could be my daughters), slimmer and probably prettier, too.  ;) They don't feel that I pose a threat to them and, to be honest, I wouldn't hesitate to be in the room with them on my own. Treat them the way you want to be treated yourself. (Okay, when I have a bloke in the studio I talk a lot of bull****). A photoshoot can be fun.

3 - Show them the pictures after you've taken a few. They will love it.

4 - Master your equipment. There's nothing worse to your own confidence and the model's if you're fiddling with camera settings, have problems triggering the flash, not getting the right exposure etc.

5 - I usually work without assistants. If I need a reflector, there's usually two spare hands coming from make-up.

Bettina
: Re: Working with a model
: Forgiss January 05, 2008, 01:26:41 AM
I use the Kepcor flash trigger that works really well.

http://www.speedgraphic.co.uk/prod.asp?i=6299&1=Kepcor+IR+Flash+Trigger (http://www.speedgraphic.co.uk/prod.asp?i=6299&1=Kepcor+IR+Flash+Trigger)


yep, there are a lot of solutions out there, but I specifically wanted the wizzards because I want to be able to remote trigger the cameras as well (for other shoots, not models :D )

As we travel a lot, we try and keep our kit light, and as it is now, 1 backpack with kit and notebook is 22kg :D
: Re: Working with a model
: DNF-Style January 05, 2008, 01:52:28 AM


..............
As we travel a lot, we try and keep our kit light, and as it is now, 1 backpack with kit and notebook is 22kg :D
That raises a nice topic:
What equipment do you use (http://photographicfreedom.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=430.0)